Play Bold: The Best of Season 2


Episode 2 is now at the end, and we summarize the best moments from all our fantastic guests sharing their wisdom in this last episode. It has been a privilege to have you all. I really enjoyed all the deep dives into the DNA of innovation, growth, and sustainability, as well as adjacent areas, link to this. The Play Bold philosophy is "Your aim will be not to perpetuate your existing business model but to buy time — time to build up the capabilities and resources you need to make the leap to the next S-curve intelligently" and you all contributed to putting this into color and paint pictures to be shared for coming years. 

Magnus penker's new book playbold, how to win the business game through creative destruction, is available to buy now on Amazoncom. Read the Book and, in the meantime, sit back and enjoy the playbold podcast. So welcome to Magnus panker's playbold podcast and the best bits of season two. These can all be enjoyed while scrolling through the pages of Magnus's new book, available on Amazon, play bold, how to win the business game through creative destruction. Now it's hard to believe that Magnus as spoken to another twelve fantastic guests in this latest season of playbold. Some truly interesting conversations with inspirational people who have all been more than happy to share their thoughts and wisdom. All the episodes are now available to listen to in full from wherever you download your podcasts, and, of course, that book is still available on Amazon for you to buy and read. Now, with Magnus handing the reins over to me for this best of season two episode, let's recamp the interviews that you can hear in full. Episode One saw Magnus Inviting Johan rouse of Lego serious play fame, and now heading up holts with campuses across due by the United Kingdom and America, the Higher Education Company. It was a chat about so many fascinating seen things, including working to turn the pandemic situation to an advantage, among many things that Magnus asked. He Got Johan to talk about their thinking on higher education online. You could say that it pretty soon became obvious that this pandemic would change a lot in our industry and I would say everybody realized that this would propel what was previously sort of experimental and partly, you know, look down upon online education and it would propel that into the to the forefront of higher education, and much faster than I believe many people anticipated. So so we decided to develop some new courses, some versions of existing programs and a new programs based on this sort of limitless learning approach. But we also did something else. We wanted to go beyond the traditional way of thinking of education, and I'm really in the spirit of lifelong learning, and there we had some early discussions with the major corporation in the world, namely Ernst and Young, and I can say this because it's public now, but we've actually, at the same time as this pandemic was, you know, causing a more problems for everybody. We announced a partnership with Arnst in young to actually have potentially hundreds of thousands of their staff continue their education inside ernsting on and we would sort of take on that and shure that it has the right quality and so forth, and then bring people on to a new program which we call the technology or a tech MBA, which is, I believe, the very pioneering and interesting for for higher education is truly going where I believe it's going, namely small stackable elements like Lego bricks, and throughout your career, in a sense, you can be able to stack this and build sudden degrees after a while. So I believe that that's something we did. We also have some interesting conversation with the US. I really school to do some really cool stuff. In episode two it was Daniel wants to go over the found himself being questioned by Magnus and Daniel, with his embraer x background, gave some really interesting insights into how he found himself well, both a fan of star wars and a man who, as head of embryer x, at the cutting edge of technology and using that technology to keep innovation flowing at the needed pace.

We also heard Daniel talking about being influenced by a higher purpose and the importance of that. He is what he had to say, you know, the younger generations that they are very, very good at, you know, posing such questions to us. To do the executives. More and more, we perceived that the real competition in the market is for talents and we perceived that talented people they don't want to serve, you know, the the simple or interest of the shareholders of the company. They want to be part of something that is larger, that is bigger, that is capable to create a legacy, if you will, or at least a contribution they can feel proud of building, and this has been a very strong sentiment in the history of embryer. If you were to ask me why I think embryer is still alive a as I mentioned before, of course, there are many, you know, business related or technical related explanations I could offer, but what I myself truly believe it is a sentiment. It is a feeling that was there from the start because the task was so hard, you know, to establish a High Tech Company to compete globally, out of a country that has so many challenges like Brazil. That felt like, you know, climbing the highest mountain, and that was inspiring. It was an inspiring mission. It inspired our founders, inspired our pioneers, pioneers, and it keeps inspiring us to this day. But again, as we have to move forward, we started to realize even this, you know, a climbing the high mountain is is not enough as an inspiration for the current generation. And thank God this is happening, because I'm really excited to see how sustainability is becoming, you know, the top one item in the future generations agenda. We need to make sure will, you know, serve our purpose and serve our markets, serve our customers, without creating a problem for our, you know, children and our grandsons to have to solve it. It's pretty much on the contrary. We really need to create businesses that are capable to be, you know, sustainable in every sense, not only economically but socially and environmentally, and and in our industry, this is is becoming really the top item in every CEO's agenda. In episode three it was Liqu a pronasalt, the chief business innovation of a self. MC cruises. Now an entire rethink needed in his industry, with eyes on the future and coming back stronger. Magnus asked Luca what it is that's important about encouraging and nurturing a culture of innovation. Culture Denominator for innovation is really being interpreneurial in the approach you manage the business, because if you are an Entrepreneurra you have the mindset of being flexible and Agile and being able to take a risk and to look forward and to think differently, because because, by definition, if you are an entrepreneur, you don't you want to succeed with Your Business and in order to do that you need to be to beat to the competition and to be perceived at different by the clients. So is buying me. By definition, you are someone that is is open to see things from a different perspective, to take a risk, a step further into the risk, because you want to succeed. So to me, you...

...know, even if you are a manager and even if you are working within an organization, Corporation, big organization, if you apply and if you're able, obviously you need to be all you need to have also a bit of you know, feeling and the character for that. But if you are able to apply an entrepreneurial approach in your business, they by their business. I'm convinced that you will be more successful in innovating and transforming your company. So a lot of people argue that, you know, innovation is just a set deputy or it just happened, but it seems that you have a pretty structured approach. So in your experience, what is important if you if you want to institutralize and structure innovation and not just let it happen if it happened. Well, I mean innovation by definition, as we said before, something that does not exist as so is the responsibility of the manager and the executive managing the renovation to structure the process in the best way according to the the ecosystem and the environment where he or she is operating. But in general, you know you mean you need to be quite a critical person in order to put together structure from one side but the same time the care ativity from the other one, because, for example, innovation for me means also going out of the office and being outside the company in order to to to get at the right level of contamination from people around the globe, from companies around the globe, but that they could give you a completely different perspective on things that maybe you never realized. In episode, for Andrea Alvarez Join Magnus, one of the most influential people in Brazil. She had some Matura, the largest cosmety brand in the country. It was a truly fascinating chat that came back to that higher purpose angle once again and how to use that approach, evil, passion and who is that is important in your success or failure, I think. I think it would be to you know, guide your own career and your life with this open, curious and empathetic heart and mind. I really do. I think when you when you approach life and the choices you are making with that combination of openness, of curiosity and empathy, you can develop the intellectual aspect a lot more easily, I think, Ye, a lot easier than you can actually develop these things because as a society we put enormous pressure on the logical, intellectual, rational aspects, the hard sciences as we call them, which to me they're not even that hard if you can be very conceptual mathematically. But it's about you know, combining these aspects and then, and then really people putting people first. It is people, you know. It will be people, the ones that will do it better or worse, that will be more or less engaged, that will come up with solutions. Are Not. And when I say people put people first, it's also acknowledging that we are responsible, especially as we go higher up and leadership positions, for creating the environments in which the people are operating in. And then that would maybe be my next thought, which is make sure and be attentive... the ecosystems and the environments that you are creating to make sure that they are safe for people to be who they truly are, for people to bring to work their best versions and their worst versions, because that is part of who they are, and it is precisely in that, in that individuality, that you have amazing potential for innovation, for breakthroughs, for creativity if they feel safe to speak up, to ask questions, to bring weird ideas to the table, to voice out concerns. In episode five it was Kyle Magnus Ring, Swedish serial entrepreneur found of world attracts, which is a startup focusing on innovating logistics with electric tracks. Magnus raised the subjects of parallel entrepreneurship and what the benefits of working that way, along with the theory of the constraints creating something new from something old and, of course, his take on the opportunity of working with an increased electrification in so many aspects of our lives. Here is what he had to say. The opportunity with the electric is exactly what he said. If you're moving parts, less need of service and maintenance, hopefully less need of spare parts and so on. So you have to think. I think, think your business model has to be different. We all know that even for car manufactories in the classic world and also truck manufacturers, a very big part of their bottom line comes from off the sale, service, maintenance, spare parts and all that. And in the electric future that's not why we you will make your money if we look at the sustainable perspective. That, I think, is is super and that is what we try to do, as we will guarantee up time, so we will guarantee that they I mean like the Alon Muski is saying. I mean principally, you don't have to go for service. Ever, in. In the ideal world our tracks would last fifty years and they will never have to be serviced, no maintenance, no spare box. And of course, as we want to maintain control of the ownership over the tracks, we have all incentives to build trucks that will last as long as possible, which is good sustainability. We also have then to to consider how, at the end of life, how do we what can we recycle? How do we do their second life for batteries, etc. Etc. So I think our business model and sustainability goes hand in hand and and I think that is of course. I mean if you have a profit line that is depending on on by and throw away, that is not sustainable. So I think that's that's very good. We then have to, of course, look at we have to make money out of building tracks or renting out tracks and so on, but it's we can. We have to look at the total, basically lifetime of the track and and see that that makes sense. We think that we are coming already to to what they call tcos or total cost of ownership or total use, TCU, total use of cost of usage that is comparable over time, all better than theesel. So that's of course, where we when we come, when the industry come to that tipping point, then there is no I mean there is no way back. Basically, and hopefully or right now there are incentives and you know, things like that and and bands of these selans on.

That is helping us in the start, but over time there is no doubt we should become in episode six, Brent's Cooper, The New York Times best selling author of the Lean Entrepreneur and CEO of moves the needle, an expert in bringing new technologies to the market and a man who ignites innovation in industry. Magnus got him to expand on that importance of culture in innovation and led us back to talking once again about that higher purpose. Culture is everything, right and so. But culture is not a slogan. Culture is the behavior of the people inside the organization. And so culture can't happen top down. We literally I had this this client, that very senior individual in a it actually a European medical device company and and you know, he sort of was declaring from on n you know, we must be agile, and he he would ask me, you'll like, why can't I just declare that we be more agile and people go be more agile and I well, you know, we actually have to we have to work on the behavior, and that means training and practicing, means defining what we want to see and and of course there's multiple layers of that. Right, you have to build in what is the new role of middle management when you have people that are behaving differently on the ground and and leadership has to behave in different ways. So it's great to declare it, but you know, that's like that's the beginning of the job. Best of it. The really hard slog the long journey, is changing this behavior so that the cult that you want emerges from that. It's a little strategical. Something South there, and they delivering like this. You know, Great Strategy Song on power points and then most companies fail to execute on it. So have you seen that it's maybe sometime better to change the strategy based on your culture then tried to change the culture based on a new strategy? Yeah, I think that. I mean I actually don't do of what are the few consultants in the world, but maybe doesn't do strategy. Yet it almost doves me because of how often that fails, and I it's almost, I don't know, this is maybe not fair, but it's almost lazy, right. I mean it's really not that difficult to sit around a board table and come up with a new strategy. I mean that's kind of the easy part of it. Yeah, and so I think that the hard work again gets back to the behavior. And so I do think that there is a strategic element to it, because you know, leadership the vision that what we're just not going to do is tell you exactly how we're going to do it. Rather a matter of fact, in my old book, you know from from two thousand and thirteen, the lean entrepreneur, what I would talk about myth of the visionaire and the myth of the visionary is you know this idea, that Euriqua moment in like yeah, and now you must deliver that d to The market. And people love to use Steve Jobs and Thomas Edison and all of these other icons as examples of visionaries, but all of those individuals were not visionaries because they had the spark of an idea and then went and executed on it. Their visionaries because there was a specific change that they wanted to make in the world and then they spent their whole careers trying numerous different ways of achieving the change. For Episode Seven, Magnus had the pleasure of talking to Greg spilling, CEO of fantasycom. That's a platform for consumers searching for fashion and art online which, under Greg's leading hand, has seen an increase in order size by some fifty percent and achieving two million active uses. Magne Styles Gregg how impultant innovation was in a turnaround situation. He... the fantastic answer he gave. Oh Man, I mean, look, in most cases their innovations going to be necessary. I mean what in my personal experience, so you know, most of the turnarounds I've been in have had a similar sort of DNA in regards to founder. Came in, ability to raise capital, had an initial thesis, built a product or established, you know, a baseline of a product. They got some traction and then there was a stall. You know, things didn't move forward and you know from that perspective, you know they they were they were not able to get to profitability, they weren't able to raise capital. You know, the excitement of kind of being a start up started to wear off. But there was enough there that it was obvious that the company needed to survive, like let's let's take this thing to the next level. How do we do that? And and you know, when you come into a situation like that, you really got to identify what the blocker is. In most cases there's blockers across the board, from sales, customer support, you know, maybe overall product strategy. You know where the product sits in the marketplace. But for us to be successful there has to be innovation on some sort of I mean we have to evolve the company. So you know, I think you talked a lot about it your new book, which is fantastic and and built on probably you know, the sort of the innovators to Alumna. It has to be that comfort with what sort of jumping the gap and and going to where the puck's going, not where it's been, and and driving the company to do that point. But you know, if you're not willing to change, you're not willing to innovate, you're not willing to do things differently, there's no reason to think that the company's going to ever be successful, especially in a turn around situation. So fantasy raised quite much money in asked them maybe will something the city that's successfully into it and getting the right kind of correction because they have to defend the high valuation. Then over time things got better and you work with the helping them to take them to the next level. And I guess doing that you really need to make everybody not just feelself, your team, everybody to go the extramil in a commpany how do you do that? How do you motivate people to really do that? Yeah, no, you know is I is. I look back on my experiences and this might be relevant for people who are in your audience. You know, I came out of business school and formalized training and and you know, and I had experience. I was an entrepreneur early in my career and when I when I first, you know, started to get put into this situation, it was somewhat accidental. The turnaround thing was accidental, but wasn't it wasn't planned. I just got brought into a company. I think my my first even though we were successful. Some of the scars that I have that I've learned from is I would almost approach these businesses like a business case, like a Harvard business case. Here's our assets, here's what the external markets doing. Here's what we need to accomplish mood, you know, and it's a chess pieces, you know, we're going to cut this division off here, we're going to invest here, we're going to go after this market here. There's some there's some WHITESPA place over here. And even though I was right in a lot of cases, or you know, any in executive coming in could be very right, where the rationale it was built, you know, the the strategy was sound, if your people or the people there aren't willing to follow you or don't believe in it too, or don't understand why you're doing it's going to be very, very difficult to be successful. So what I've evolved to, and I think that you know now when I think of myself as a leader with the organization and I've gotten so much better, is the ability... create that vision across the organization, that shared purpose, where the team not just understands where we're trying to go, which is, you know, unbelievably important that we're all aligned and there's a lineman across the organization with what the goal is, but there's a feeling of of why, why? Why? I'm want to be a part of this why I'm excited to go on this journey with you. And then once you're able to get that sort of, you know, courcursive group of people that are all have a shared common goal, your strategy is going to be much more successful and and and I think the key be part of that is, you know, a it's setting that goal that they buy in on, but be making sure that they feel like they're part of it and that we're building this thing together. And I think once you do that you're going to find it. You know, organization effectiveness is can country the roof. In Episode Eight, Frederick Anderson, entrepreneur, turnaround specialists and global transformer, a man who turns things into what you never believed possible. That said, it's not always playing sailing. There are things that go less well in any process. So Magnus raised the subject that had come up in previous episodes about that all important relationship with failure. Here's what he had to say. My personal relationship, I always say I fairly ninety nine times that are hundred. It's a catastrophe, and that goes from my personal life and and it also goes to my professional life. But I also trained myself to be compassionate about myself. It is how life is right and I cannot change that, but I can always try to improve by curiosity when it comes to coaching those involved, for instance, in impossible plastic or other people that I talk to privately or professionally. I think that be prepared. The faster you accept that you will do more defaults and errors then you do rights. Don't put too much pressure on yourself because it paralyzes you and you become anally new control functions and it prevents speed. And if you're not with speed and piloting, it doesn't mean that you should be a reckless you need people around you and you also need to be aware yourself that you need to manage risk, set the parameters for what risk you can take and then you work quickly to go through deck of ideas, because only one out of hundred. I believe he's going to be fruitful, but too many people spend too much time on saying this is their day. They stick to the idea and the drill down and they don't have the ability to kill the army. They yes, cling to it and plunge down money time and then in the end of cell didn't work. If you apply this reasoning to the situation that the world's in right now with a pandemical and no one really knows what would have happened post pandemic, I guess a very bad advice would be to go back to the roots and go back to what he did before the pandemic. I still think people think like that. They plan for a go back to an old normal, while most likely it would be a totally new situation. If you apply your sinking to that, what advice would you give to people listening to this call to be ready to get back in the saddle off the pandemic? Yeah, I think you and I discussed once about this. What will happen after the pandemic will be? Will it be like after the the finacial crisis in the S, which was a disaster, or will it be the feeling on the streets in New York when the Second World War was over? I think that that's the big potential, that people will feel relieved and they were said, wow, now we have nydy to go again. And when you have energy, I think that you have that possibility to become more free in new thinking, and that will need itself enable people to think in... ways. How it will be shaped or how it will be done. I think that no one really knows and it's just too again, sorry, stay your ears and you will be able to detect what's going on on the streets, and that's where you find the new trends and that's where you find the new people that has good ideas for the future. So, yes, staying attentive and I've been listening to a few few as one of the guys I listen to podcast all is some Harris is, this a very intelligent guy, and another guy that I admire quite a lot, as you all know, how Ari, and when you listen to them that it's they also are into this, that humanity has the best time, maybe possibly ever. So if we stay true to what we what we like and what we want to go and have a directional set, then then we, I think, the future can be very good. It was in episode nine Magnus caught up with Melissa rand called with her entrepreneurial skill. She found it green hat, which encourages young women to develop and study stem topics, science, technology, engineering and mathematics, and that has already reached Fiftyzero students and families. Magnus also got Melissa to expand on that fear of failure, or rather fear of not succeeding. This was Melissa's take on it. Like you said, I think it's also a cultural one. Can Be by geography, can be also by our experiences, it can be by our education, any number of things, and I think that fear goes into a lot, which is the fear to start, the fear to succeed, even the fear to grow, the fear to play bold. You know, to come back to the title of your book, because I think this holds us back and it and it creates the missed opportunities and I think if we take a look at what could be, and I think that also what you know, at the entrepreneur has that I put on often during the day, I do say something, you know, that really drives me is that what really pushes me to go beyond and go beyond fear is when someone tells me it's not possible, I go oh, yes, it is, yeah, yeah, I like that one. One of the older guests you grantees a professor in anthropology and she's actually creating her own resume. Your failure and he said exactly the same thing. If someone want to multivate me that time, it's not possible. I like that. That's stand trepreneurial ven and I think it goes very much into innovation as well. So when you work with all of you, you know the students, the executives and and, as Becose Solta, we're entrepreneur for that metode. In your experience, what are the biggest hodels to really create sustainable grows, to become sustainable and still grow at the same time? What is hindring most organizations, I think most is actually having too much experience and what they've already done. So I find that, especially when you talk about it on an industry level, that when they're looking to innovate, they look at other organizations in the same industry, and that's where I believe one of the biggest missed opportunities are. So I think that the possibilities that we have is to do a little bit of a crazy thing, and that is think about a completely different industry now, or even combine it, and that's where you you end up being very daring and you end up innovating to a totally different direction. And fact, in our program when we get together and we're always doing creative tools and design tools and so forth. I design is especially those tools to... us to think in a very different direction. What if this company in this company merged, what would be the results? What if this industry worked like that industry? What would be the result? And that's where I think that that that opportunity for creative ideas a bounce. It was episode ten that Magnus Call Up with Gary Purcell, with an exceptional background, a man who is now a principle innovation s Canadian operation, working regionally and internationally with Fin seg. Magnus pose the question why is innovation so important? Yeah, I think here's where I find the the frameworks that we've developed inside Inn abase three hundred and sixty very, very, very helpful, because what they do is reinforce the fact that innovation is a really important part in a lifeblood of thriving organizations and thriving regions. That we sort of go back to the previous question. People think about it innovation as as ideation really, and it's not just that, you know, like stick at going in a room and put the little stickies in the wall and stuff. It's an important part, but it isn't the only thing, and I like to say that that's that ideas are places that need a tension, but there are lots of ideas that there. Really the trick is to figure out where you what, how, why and WHO and make sure that you've got that right. So, as an organization, at about being clear on where you want to go, thinking in the end, about how you're going to do that, you know, from strategy through the commercialization, and if you figure that out and you are able to pivot it as industries evolved, then your organizations can be around for a long time. And so for me, that's that's why innovation is important, because it's a critical part of you're a long term presence in a market or other markets of an organization, and without that we have lots of examples of fortune. Five hundred companies at last for, you know, a minute and a half because of the fact that I haven't really thought forward and innovative to the way that they could. I guess that when you work across different industries and, as in your case, redions, I guess you can see common patterns when it comes to change and trust, a mation and innovation, maybe resistance. What kind of practice do you see typically when you work with with this this issues that that's to do with gross and change. So so what I find is there absolutely is a pattern. You know there is. There is a commonality across industries and when I work in the financial service industry there are actually a number of different verticals within the industry and you know there are people that would argue that insurance is different from banking and like that, and there is a difference in the product. But really, when you think about it's all about people and you know human behavior and structure are the the most important parts and that you can see across industry. So of late I've been doing work in the many caratchuring and trabrication environment and in financial services and in a while there's not a lot of heavy machinery. Actually there's some in the financial services space. You know, the the actual innovation process and the way people need to think about and whatever and the way people behave inside, you know, the capturing hearts and mind stuff is very similar and it all comes down to communication and whatever. So so I think about innovation to something that you have to work together to accomplish. And so to. How do you do that? Is Very similar, in my view, across organizations, industries and countries. So here's here's how I think about it and you'll see a little some themes that might be similar to the stuff we've talked about before. But to me there's for important steps. Step one is driving an agenda with a...

...coherent strategy that reflects the organization's capabilities, and we've talked about this a lot, in that you can't accomplish something if you don't have the capabilities to accomplish it. Step to is setting the stage for success by really understanding addressing the needs of your clients and your intron of resources and agreeing to a set of needs and I direction. Third one is focusing on executing what you've promised and and often that's where people jump to after the first meeting. So they get to executing and they really haven't spent the time energy to really understand the interline needs and sometimes at the end of the step three, that's where people stop. In my view, there's a four step and that step is to make a point of asking your clients if they're satisfied. Try to learn from the experience that you've had with them and look for ways to exceed those expectations with new suggestions on how that you can help going forward. That four step, I think, is the one of the biggest differentiators between the companies that I've been involved with and how successful they can be versus others who short to jump quickly to execution, to declare completion and then move on to the next initiative. In episode eleven, Magnus was joined by Henry Friedman and innovation professor Ih m, business school and Entrepreneur Passion for individuals, learning and business, and the man who translated the arts of war. He chatted about what lessons can be learned from the past to carry us into the future. Now Magnus host him his thoughts about balancing the long term and short term when it came to planning for the future. He is what Henry had to say. Oh, that's a big question. I mean that's the challenge for everyone in senior leadership to jump between. It's like a Bundee jumped between long term and short term commitments. And I mean it's so easy to fall into the daily business and they again off today, but at that time, that's when you actually have to step up and take your role as a leader to give room, space and resources to actually thinking ahead, thinking for ahead, and also, if you ask your employees, that's one of the most important part to build an or strong organization. That is that you have a clear vision, that you have a clear mission, and I mean first time I was hearing that in school I thought that okay, you do that, you sign off the paper and it's done. No, it's when you're living that, when you really believe and commit yourself to you, as you said before, a high purpose, and that means that you can't just do the things in the short term. You have to also work with a long term of this. Interesting part is that my teas is when I was John Grad at PhD school, was about time awareness in study decisions. The important lessons from that study came out with that a lot of people doesn't have the time or the capability to think that far ahead, and that was even one of the conclusions that came out that my boss had worse time study time awareness than the cleaning lady that I had as a pilot test for my studies. My boss was not that excited about the result, but it's telling you something. This is a skill set and this is also talent. So you have to pick people that actually can move themselves between time and space, and that's that's important if you have to be an organization in movement, and the society we are living in today, we have to move a lot. We have two continue as you be on the road for moving, and then you have to think ahead, otherwise you're...

...lost. Now Hope I've held your focus for this little walk through a season two, because focus is what it was all about. Four, episode twelve, Christina Bangston, a master of Focus, a world champion precision shooter and so many other things besides, with a conversation that focused on focus and it's relevance to keeping your ideas both relevant and moving forward. One of the questions Magnus asked. So, Christina, explain how, when there's a decision to be made that you can't predict the outcome for, how should you and how do you approach it? Yeah, it comes back to, to, as you say, a military perspective where we have this old fashioned perhaps, but it's really interesting still to to highlight that expression that taking a decision, even though it's wrong, it's better than not taking a decision at all. Yes, I agree, especially in in times where something is really dangerous, which it can be in in different military operations. That's where it comes from. If you stand still, the enemy will hit you. So it's kind of obvious and from a focused perspective, is actually easier to come into sharpness, discipline and focus if there is a direct threat upon you. But nowadays, you know, we don't really live in the military operations. Well, in the military we do, and in some business cases we do, but there is a large amount of time that is for the administrative part and everyday life within the organization and again and everyday life also from a private perspective. I believe we need to bring in the private perspective, like you just did, into the business. It goes hand in hand much more now perhaps than it did before. Taking choices. It's important. Perhaps it's even more important to learn to to say no. That's also a choice. I believe that we are so used to decide what we need to do and to take choices to be able to get somewhere and we want to take choices fast because otherwise someone else is taking that choice. Perhaps I or we are afraid of almost being forgotten. I laugh about this because I think of I might lose track now, but I promised to come back as the focus expert I'm thinking about. It was a year ago when the pandemic and started, and many of my friends who work, if I'm allowed to say, only as a speakers or lectures, got afraid because they couldn't come out to the audience anymore and they started to two directly Yung jump into the digital world, where they started to, if I'm allowed to say, produce quick fix because they were afraid of being forgotten. So they thought that they needed to be seen every now and then on the internets, in different platforms. I did, of course, the opposite. I realized that, HMM, my position is to be a focus expert. I am against quick fix. I do not support quick fix. I resist to respond to people's superficiality. And now our days on the Internet, we have so much that goes fast. That is quick fix and if we support that, well, we will never get get away from it. So I took another way and I was silent and no one has forgotten me. So again, and that's also a choice. So I feel like...

...asking the opposite. Can a choice sometimes be to decide to do nothing. Because what we need to do, also in this discussion of taking choices and how do you take choices, is to to give ourselves time to reflect. I know in your book you mentioned in the very fresh beginning, or maybe it's in the preface, Peter Drucker. The referre reference to Peter Drucker, and he said many shark things. One of the things he said was that we need time to reflect, and I think about reflecting upon the era we live in today. Is that? It makes me think also there was an author in one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine who wrote his he was Swedish. He wrote a book called the Restless Man, and I'm thinking, if we were restless then, well, what are we so now? Because to be able to take the white choices, we need to give ourselves space and time to reflect. And I think going back to the private part, how can we learn from our own families, from our children, from our wife, from our men or from the one we are living with or our closest friends? To give an another person isn't the best thing you can give another person, isn't that time and attention? And this is focus, because when you give another person time and attention, and it could be your employees, you give them a space where you interact, where you find sharp solutions and where you go back into your core values, your core identities. You give yourself the ability to reflect upon what really is important and you create a space of Focus, space where you're free from all these distractions, all these things that wants to grab your attention all the time, and I think this is something we can become much better upon, or better in whatever you say in English, and to create space in which we can reflect. So some fascinating conversations, which brings us to a close of not only this best off episode for season two, but also the close of this season. Will be back with more, but on behalf of Magnus and all his guests, of course. Thank you so much for listening and we look forward to having you back for season three, which should see magnus back behind the microphone after the summer. And until we speak again, stay safe and play bold.

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